posted
First, I would like to say that tomorrow is my two year anniversary here at nightly and I just wanna say it's sortof been a blast to be here at nightly with so many likeable people here. Now, I mention this because over the past two years, there has been many sets of rules created to protect people from racism and flame wars. Censors have been created so parents of teenagers would allow for their children to continue posting here. But, there is a threat that has yet to be dealt with here at Nightly.Net: Homophobia.
quote: originally posted by: General Kenobi
You guys wonder why RC hates these two... Did RC say a thing to ES in that thread? No. In the meantime, RC gets attacked in SWC and is called Gay Ray. I'm offended by that. There are gay kids on this board. They enjoy their time on message boards partially because they can be themeselves and not have to worry about their friends or family finding out that they're gay. They don't have to be looked down on or face descrimination. But along comes Mr. I can break the rules and the CL won't do anything ES and dashes that. First, calling RC that name was meant to be offensive. That's against the TOS. Second, using that word in a derrogatory fashion collaterally puts down all the people that actually are gay. Of course, when he was called on it he quickly edited it. So can I go around calling people names until they see it and respond and then I can edit? Is that the way NN works now? DP and JA, are you really going to let these 2 sets of rules go on?
This quote was posted in a thread created by General Kenobi in a thread with several complaints that I completely agreed with which was shut down by DP. Now, what he said was totally right. During my time here, I have seen homophobic comments that have been said here at nightly that people have not been punished for. Recently, EwokSucks has made the comment towards RC as GK pointed out. When GK said this in his thread, DP did not acknowledge it and called it a very sad excuse. I am totally offended by this and I believe that something should be changed.
Whether you like them or not, homosexuals are here at nightly. They come here so they can get away from the pressures of school or work from coworkers who already give them slack for being what they are. They do not come here to be called inappropriate names but they come to have fun. If you must know what gay teens must go through, let me tell you. It has been documented that gay teenagers are amongst the most teenage suicides around. Get the picture? And why is that you say? Because of the people around them who pull crap like this.
Something has to change around here. I don't think it is right for people to be banned for breaking the censors and saying inappropriate words when people are getting away with calling people "Gay Ray" or any other inappropriate names that offends the rights of gays, lesbians or bi-sexuals. Again, could we please do something here JA and DP? Something must be don!
-------------------- Proud Professor of the Dark Arts@ Hogwarts! For Registration into Hogwarts, Please Sign Up here! Join the Magic of Witchcraft and Wizardry w/Harry Potter!
posted
I second what JWQ said. It really offends me when people call others "Gay" "homo" and ohter mean remarks. Gays have all the rights that we do. It is not "wrong" to be gay. I am sick of seeing this crap posted on the boards.
THank you for your time.
-------------------- Proudly Trained in the force by Mar-Lee Noryali Kenobi
Forever Master to Darth Spoon and Jaycie
Posts: 1179 | From: United States | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
bob, shut up! don't you think I'm doing something good, for a change? I do...!
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posted
I agree with JWQ. I have friends that are gay. Don't post stuff like that, please.
-------------------- Signatures can appear at the bottom of your posts. This option may be disabled by the message board administrators at any time, however. You may use UBB Code in your signature, but not HTML. UBBCode Images not permitted. Posts: 1835 | From: Woburn, MA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Ok Walter, this is propoganda. You are doing what you like to do, and that is stir the pot, get the members all riled up for your own purposes. For anybody who knows you, they should see right through this. For those who do not know you, or have not been subject to you trying to rally the members to join some weak cause of yours, they will soon see. I take offense at the fact that you are trying to show JA and I as homophobes, which is clearly not true. Your statements are either taken out of context, or simply made up.
You are dangerously close to really pissing me off this time. Do NOT continue this on the boards. If you truly cared about this issue you would have PMed or e-mailed JA or me, like you do when you get banned. When it is something that really effects you, then you communicate through private means, but when you want to be a psudo-martyr, you do it publicly.
So if you are really concerned about this issue, then continue this in private and I will do EVERYTHING in my power to help. But if you continue this on the boards, then you will only prove that I am right and you do not really care.
++++++++
My stance on homophobia has been clearly stated many times, I hate people who hate. I can not stand homophobia, and it is true that I have not done enough to stop it here. We have censored terms to negativly describe homosexuals, but that is obviously not enough.
I promise to fight harder for everybody who has not been represented well enough on these boards.
quote:Originally posted by Darth Palpatine: If you truly cared about this issue you would have PMed or e-mailed JA or me.
You mean like I e-mailed you, SLI, and JA 9 to 10 months ago? And you mean like how JA told me he was going to talk to me about it on IM and then never got around to it? I'm curious... I really am. This is not a new problem at Nightly, and you know it. You and JA both know it. Yet you'd rather sit there and attack the messanger rather than address his message.
Or are you suggesting that when I emailed you guys that I was trying to be some martyr? Considering this month was the first time I've mentioned it again since last August or September I find that hard to swallow. You guys tell the members to put aside their pettyness, why don't you do the same? Ignore that it's Walt for a minute. He's not going to gain anything by this, and if he does, so what? That hardly weakens your power DP. It hardly shakes the hold JA has on NN to its core... But what it might do, if you would focus on the message and not the messenger is help to address an actual problem Nightly has.
Currently in S&P you can find a thread by Lord Rage entitled: Catholics Accepting Homo's!
The first line of which is: What the hell is wrong with them?
You know as well as I do that you won't do anything if this is kept in private. How can I say that? I have proof... Past experience. You've done nothing for almost a year about this type of crap.
And you can call this questioning your authority if you want... It's not and you also know that. I'm just relaying the facts of what has happened. If that's unsavory, that's not my fault. I did try to keep this quiet 10 months ago. Silence without action doesn't hold.
Lastly, nobody is trying to overturn anyone's job or call into question anyone's leadership. What has or hasn't been done to prevent this isn't in question. The question is what will be done. And some general statement about trying your best means nothing to me. I wouldn't have expected less from you over the past year. I think what Walt and others are looking for is something to actually result from this in the way of stopping this kind of harrassment or penalizing those that use it.
Afterall, people can't make fun of JA for sheep, a truly fictional and totally joking instance without getting banned, but calling someone names based on sexual preference is okay? There needs to be a line drawn in the sand and it needs to be publicly drawn. Period.
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posted
DP - I don't think Walt is trying to suggest that you and JA are homophobes. I reread his post after reading yours, and I think that's just a matter of interpretation; if you want to perceive an attack, you will. But his is a valid point: regardless of board politics, lesbian/gay/bi members should NOT have to deal with ANY sort of homophobic BS here.
You can call it a matter of vested interest, if you want. I'm bi. I haven't announced it on Nightly before because I don't feel that it should matter; nor have I told anyone at school. It's my life, my emotions. I'm lucky enough to know a lot of people who also don't care, and I'm sure that if I went around telling my friends about my sexual orientation, it would be no big deal. More power to them. But if I told people in Backwardsville, Upstate NY, I'd just about be run out of town. I know I'd lose friends over it, and I know I'd be harrassed. Again - it hasn't been relevant, so I haven't 'come out.'
If Nightly is supposed to be a place where people are comfortable, sexual orientation shouldn't be made relevant in an intrusive and disrespectful way. Personal opinions are one thing - believe what you want, but don't go shoving it in other people's faces. Or do - but don't expect to get away with it.
I realize that it takes more than an automatic censor to weed homophobia out of posts. Bleeping out certain words that are considered derogatory can help, but for every quantifiable slur, there are countless euphemisms - it takes more than a few lines of code to fix. I don't know what the solution is, but it's not mine to come up with. You want feedback? This is feedback.
And for the record - politics aside, this is a valid issue. I know it's more controversial than race- or gender-based derogatory remarks - but you can bet that if someone derided me for my sexual preferences, I'd want it to be treated the same way.
(Edit: changed a few words. Few, as in two. I'm sure no one else will care. ::shrugs:: )
posted
GK: I am very well aware of that thread, if you notice I was active in it myself. And I addressed the topic at hand, I am going to step up my efforts on stoping hatred of any kind.
But what do you suggest I do? It's not like I have been ignoring the issue, I take an active roll, but what else can I do? I can not change someones opinion, if someone chooses to hate gay people, I am not going to ban someone over it. That would be just as bad as banning someone for saying they hate homophobes, it would be a double standard.
All I can do is censor out certain words that are deemed offensive, that is all I can do.
As a matter of fact I am going over the censor right now making sure words are in there. But other than that there is nothing else I can do.
------
As for the messanger, you of all people should know his ruse. And again....it's working.
I do take this issue very seriously, that is why this thread is still open. I want to hear the opinions on the topic at hand, I just want to make sure that it is the topic we are dealing with, and not Walters attempt to gain popularity....again.
posted
You're right, commenting about gays is one thing and people should be free to express their opinions... But calling someone Gay Ray isn't making a statement other than to degrade another member. RC isn't gay, thus suggesting that he is insults both RC and someone that is gay because the term is then equated with something that is bad. When something like that happens there is something you can do. And this shouldn't be about Walt, nor about RC, nor about ES, nor about me, nor about anyone in particular. This is about the issue...
You wouldn't let someone on here call any member a n***** . Nor would you let them call anyone else that. You wouldn't allow someone to be called S*** Rick... so why Gay Ray? And that's just an example. My suggestion? Make the rules clear that no derrogatory statements or pejorrative terms be used or the member gets banned temporarily or permanently. That's simple. It doesn't infringe on their opinion about the group, but it does prevent them from stabbing at other members or groups.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: General Kenobi ]
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posted
I agree with GK, and with Walt to a certain extend!
Yes, there is a blantant homophobia here on NN. I'm not as good with quotes as GK is, but I know it exists! Even poinitng out facts about something that has to do with gays gets you incomprehensive stares and reprimands.
Case in point: A comment I made about a Japanese anime cartoon show (I believe Sailor Moon), pointing out that in its original version (in Japanese) there are overt allusions to "homosexual ´relationships" between some of the charcters featured in that show. It's a fact, and I was amused by how many of the younger SW Chicks are drawn to that show (which apparently airs in the US using greatly changed/dubbed dialougue) without actually knowing its true background. Yet the same ppl would't be caught dead being friends or pals with a gay person.
That thread was promptly critized by the CL on SWC, how dare I point out that fact, I just wanna stir trouble ect. blah blah!
I'm not so much critizicing the CL for her complaint; any other CL here on NN might have acted exactly the same way.
And THAT'S deplorable!
I know Walt is a lil' schemer, and I don't trust him. However, he [i]does have[/b] a valid point of critique and I'm glad you have left this thread open for more discussion!
Thanks DP!
-------------------- Proud Master of Padawan Torva Kenari *Forever Master to Knights OWL, Yodie, J.Jenna, Lady Palpatine, and VLAmidala!
posted
To be totally honest I don't know. I don't remember being aware of the quote when it happened, I would like to think that I would have said something to him had I known it was an issue at the time.
If I was aware of it then I should have said something to ES about it, I agree 100%. But I really don't remember. I have shared a few e-mails with ES, and I can't remember the content of each one.
I know that sounds like a cop-out, but it's true. I really don't remember. If I knew about it and said nothing, then I was in the wrong, and something should have been done about it.
And no TR, I was hardly tittoeing around the issue.
Darth Whoever
Wishes He Knew How To Quit You
Member # 3476
posted
It must have been because I was 12 when I joined NN that I have odd memories of people getting along on their own. I must have been young and stupid, because I can see that that never could have been the case here.
*Sigh*
-------------------- Those who dance are thought mad by those who hear not the music.
posted
Let's not make this about specific people lest some choose to come in here and change the subject from the overall question at hand.
However, did he say it? Yes. Then he edited it when something was posted to him about it. Does JA know it happened? You bet he does. He was PMmed by like 5 or 6 or more members. But again, this isn't just about that... it's about things LIKE that.
But is talking to them enough? Shouldn't there be a clear policy? Set in stone?
Consider you're a 13/14/15 year old boy who is gay/bi. You feel like crap because you know you're different from what seems to you to be the world. You don't know anyone like you. There are people out there like you, but you wouldn't know that because popular society deems it a lesser offense to bash gays than other people, and you're scared to death to tell even your closest friends. Afraid they will abandon you. Same with your parents. So you introvert yourself and come online to talk about something you love... SW. And what do you run into on a place that should be a refuge? People slinging terms and comments around that are designed to hurt... Perhaps not directed at you, but aren't they? Don't offensive terms or jabs at someone else using a term that doesn't even apply to them hurt everyone who that term could be applied to?
The worst acts here at NN in this regard are not those done specifically against someone. Let's use an analogy. Let's say that I want to get at some male member or other... So I call him a woman. That comment was designed to hurt him, but de facto it also is designed to suggest the term woman and all those it applies to are lesser... And that's wrong.
Clear guidelines, no lovey dovey discussions, and banishments be they temporary or permanent are the answer here I truly do believe.
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posted
There are clear guidelines, as far as I see. And to me the guidelines are crystal clear.
But like all the guidelines around here, they are bent everyday. Cursing happens everyday, people flame other people everyday. They are things that just happen, there is not much we can do about it other than enforce the rules when we can.
I admit that some members seem to be given less strict guidelines, and it is wrong. If a member with ten posts attacks you they would be treated differently than if TR did it. That is wrong and I admit it.
As far as calling someone names, no matter what they are, those people are dealt with. Sometimes they get away with it, unfortunatly it happens. Either they don't get caught, or JA and I are simply not around in time to deal with it. I do 80mph on I-95 every day, but I don't get caught everyday. Again, it's unfortunate but it happens.
I don't know what else you want me to say, you keep arguing that "gay bashing" is bad, I don't need to be told that. I am not arguing that it is OK, or that we accept it here. I admit that it happens from time to time, but like all the rules, we try to enforce it as best as we can.
posted
I entirely agree with what Walt has stated above, I think it should stop, but I don't see anything being done to stop it. GK has made some good points, and VLAmidala I think you're very corageous to announce that.
-------------------- "It's easy to be miserable. Being happy is tougher - and cooler" - Thom Yorke Posts: 15138 | From: Southern California | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TuskenRaider: I see you are tiptoeing around the issue.
Answer one blatent question.
Was anything said to ES after he made those degoratory comments? Or was it let go?
Yes, I PMed EwoksSuck about his comment. What do you expect me to do, make an announcement that I have PMed ES about it? I told GK at least, you never talked to me about it.
quote:Originally posted by General Kenobi: However, did he say it? Yes. Then he edited it when something was posted to him about it. Does JA know it happened? You bet he does. He was PMmed by like 5 or 6 or more members.
What are you trying to get at? That I totally ignore the comments people send me via PM or email? What right do you have to do that, when you really don't know yourself? Well let me lay it out for you, yes, I do read every PM and email that I receive. Do I always reply? No. Does that mean that I ignore the issue? No. I replied to your PMs, GK, a while ago.
Anyhow, back to the topic of this thread. We can not abolish homophobia, we can not ban it completely. If someone doesn't not like homosexuals then that is their decision, their opinion. We won't restrict that. But what we can stop is when someone takes it to the next level and insults someone for who they are, be it a homosexual if you will. We can stop it when someone uses a homosexual slur such as "Gay Ray." And I did talk to ES about that, and I do think that he's sorry for his comment, sorry if it offended anyone.
But that's all we can do really. We can promise you that we will stop that kind of behavior if we witness or are informed of it.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: The Jedi Apprentice ]
-------------------- Bryan Nightly.net
Posts: 7166 | From: Fresno, California | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Darth Palpatine: There are clear guidelines, as far as I see. And to me the guidelines are crystal clear.
But like all the guidelines around here, they are bent everyday... I admit that some members seem to be given less strict guidelines, and it is wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Darth Palpatine: Sometimes they get away with it, unfortunatly it happens. Either they don't get caught, or JA and I are simply not around in time to deal with it.
quote:Originally posted by The Jedi Apprentice: Yes, I PMed EwoksSuck about his comment.
I see... So it wasn't as DP suspected and you did know about the comment... It was just that you didn't do anything about it per se... Thus, also as he stated, certain members getting off with a slap on the wrist. That's exactly what I'm talking about... You PMmed him. That'll do a lot.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: General Kenobi ]
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Darth Whoever
Wishes He Knew How To Quit You
Member # 3476
posted
ES isn't a homophobe.
-------------------- Those who dance are thought mad by those who hear not the music. Posts: 10987 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
As far as I know, ES was not bashing gays. He is not homophobic in anyway. He was taking a dig at RC. He was wrong and knew it, that's why he edited it before either myself or the admins saw it. There are clear cut rules about flaming however you cannot ban someone if they have edited their post. It becomes someone's word against someone else (even if there are five people saying it). If you're going to take ES to task for his dig at RC; then several of you need taken to task for the digs you've thrown. And yes, they have been just as mean. If you're truely looking for better policies regarding gay bashing, as well as anyone else, then start by posting examples from S&P. Yes, GK did. Walt should have rather than something that is days old and a copy of a copy from an edited post.
The best thing I can see to do, is zero tolerance on flaming. We used to have it, at least to a higher degree than is in existance now.
quote:I see... So it wasn't as DP suspected and you did know about the comment... It was just that you didn't do anything about it per se... Thus, also as he stated, certain members getting off with a slap on the wrist. That's exactly what I'm talking about... You PMmed him. That'll do a lot.
Once again you presume too much. JA knew about it by your quoting him. ES had already edited it. I supposed the PM will do as much good as they do when you get them about your comments.
posted
And this is what I had hoped to avoid... Making it about specific instances.
Sad really when a discussion can be taken off on a tangent...
So my initial comment stands. I can say anything I want as long as I'm able to edit it before an Administrator sees it... That's a brilliant policy.
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quote:Originally posted by General Kenobi: I can say anything I want as long as I'm able to edit it before an Administrator sees it... That's a brilliant policy.
It's not my policy.
quote:Originally posted by General Kenobi: And this is what I had hoped to avoid... Making it about specific instances.
Well that's what it was kind of about in the first place. Walt did quote you in his first post about the "Gay Ray" incident. He used it as a basis.
But I hope I was able to generalize the discussion, and cover all the bases with this comment:
quote:Originally posted by The Jedi Apprentice: But that's all we can do really. We can promise you that we will stop that kind of behavior if we witness or are informed of it.
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: The Jedi Apprentice ]
Topic Closed
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Now, I mention this because over the past two years, there has been many sets of rules created to protect people from racism and flame wars. Censors have been created so parents of teenagers would allow for their children to continue posting here. But, there is a threat that has yet to be dealt with here at Nightly.Net: Homophobia.
