posted
After this thread was started in the Science Fiction forum, SLD moved it to its "proper" forum - the Printing Press. Ven Halcyon and I tried to convince him that segregating science fiction literature from the rest of science fiction media was a bad idea, but SLD remains unconvinced.
quote:Originally posted by SLD: pavonis, as a general rule I move exclusively literature oriented threads here. The Sci-Fi forum isn't typically about that, rather it is a sub-category of Entertainment here at Nightly, so I usually only keep book threads as they relate to TV shows, movies or other forms of entertainment. So (for example) if someone posts a thread specifically about a Star Trek novel I'd keep it in sci-fi... but threads about science fiction books in general usually get moved here.
So either the Science Fiction forum needs to be renamed the Science Fiction Television and Movies Only forum, because that is what it effectively is right now, or SLD needs to be convinced that a forum with the name Science Fiction can reasonably be expected to cover all science fiction media.
Posts: 3863 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
You know, pavonis, you could have just PM'd me and expressed your concerns about this. This feedback thread isn't necessary.
I think you may be under the misconception that my moving a few threads over to The Printing Press is somehow a betrayal of the concept of the sci-fi forum. Believe me, it's not. If you honestly take a look at every thread that's been posted in sci-fi, they are virtually all about movies and TV. So historically the sci-fi forum hasn't been about literature. However, the Printing Press is definitely about literature and since the respondants to that forum are much more focused on literature it's a much better place for such threads to be.
Now if you think that literature discussions should have more of a presence in the sci-fi forum perhaps we can consider establishing an dedicated thread just for that purpose. I'm certainly open to that idea. But I don't really think it's necessary, because we already have a whole forum here at Nightly devoted to literature, and if more people would simply use it then perhaps the moving of a thread or two wouldn't matter.
Frankly, I don't see why it's so important that the thread remain in sci-fi, people are just as capable of responding to it in the literary forum. It's just a mouse click away for you to reach it. Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
I'm looking for feedback from the Admins and other mods on this topic. If the Admins think that your arbitrary decision to maintain only sci-fi TV and movie threads is good, then I would like to see the forum renamed appropriately. Obviously the name is inappropriate now, as it misleads newbies into thinking that anything sci-fi belongs in that forum. In fact, when that forum was created, I was under the impression that it was a catch-all for science fiction - movies, television, and books. They're all forms of entertainment, afterall, despite your contention that being a subforum of Entertainment means it can't have literature discussions. Certainly that was the way Silky ran it initially. She tried starting a science fiction novel-of-the-month discussion thread. Just because it didn't take off, and because the forum is now heavy on TV and movie discussions is no reason to segregate sf novels.
I maintain that shunting science fiction literature threads to the Printing Press is as appropriate as moving Star Trek: Enterprise threads to the Television forum, and Matrix threads to the Movies forum.
Posts: 3863 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Ya know I PMed you about RPGs you told me no and then wouldn't go over it with me... you just ignored my PM's...
Sci Fi is books.. and media.. and video games.. and games in general...
as Mod of the joint of all people you should be cool about that.. The place doesn't get a whole lot of posts as it is.. why not have a lil fun with it?
-------------------- I trust everyone. It's the devil inside the person I don't trust.
It's not who I am underneath, but what I *do* that defines me.
nAw Creator Posts: 6238 | From: Somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Jan 2000
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If that's the basis on which it should be kept, then the argument could be made that The Printing Press deserves it more, because they get even fewer posts than Sci-Fi.
Believe me, I'm not doing anything different from the way things have been done before.
Trust me, there is a reason why literature threads are better suited to the Printing Press because they're catering to an audience (the people who frequently visit The Printing Press) that is much more focused on reading, whereas most of the people who frequent the sci-fi forum are doing so to talk about their favorite sci-fi movies and TV shows.
Like I said, if you really want the sci-fi forum to be more about literature I'm certainly open to the idea of establishing a dedicated thread for that purpose. But historically, it just never has been about that in the past, so what you're really talking about is trying to change the nature of the forum to something that it hasn't been before.
Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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If you're "open" to the idea of establishing one thread to the discussion of all sci-fi literature, then I assume you're open to the idea of establishing one thread for the discussion of all Star Trek, one thread for all of Stargate, and one for all science fiction movies, because that's tantamount to what you're saying.
Others may be claiming that your forum "needs" more posts, or the Printing Press "needs" more posts, but I am not. I'm saying that either all science fiction media should be allowed in your forum (without one thread for all sci-fi lit), or the forum should be renamed, or even abandoned. Afterall, Star Trek can also easily be accessed in the TV forum. What difference does it make whether it is in SF or TV?
Posts: 3863 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:I'm saying that either all science fiction media should be allowed in your forum (without one thread for all sci-fi lit), or the forum should be renamed.
Or we could just leave things the way they are and not worry about it.
I'm just not too concerned about it. People can post whatever they like. If threads are too literature oriented I will ocassionally move them and people can simply follow the link and continue discussing the topic in The Printing Press. It's not a matter of shutting the down the discussion, rather moving it to the forum where it is better suited.
Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
Or we could just shut down all the topical fora. Harry Potter novels can be discussed in the Printing Press. Harry Potter movies can be discussed in Movies. Same for Lord of the Rings. Comics & Animation belong in the Printing Press, too, because Comics are printed material. But we don't do that, because it's easier to keep multimedia topics in their own fora. Same for Science Fiction. It's a multimedia topic, but you arbitrarily move one medium out of the forum. You're fine with that. I'm not. I'm looking for feedback from the Admins now, not from you, SLD.
Posts: 3863 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2000
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I suggest that discussion of sci-fi literature should be allowed in the Sci-Fi forum. The extent to which it is discussed though should be up to SLD. If individual threads about individual works of sci-fi literature aren't gonna fly, then might I suggest (as SLD did) a thread regarding sci-fi literature.
Either way, I don't think all things literature-related should be moved to the Printing Press if they apply to the forum in which they are originally created. For example, if a wrestling fan decides to create a thread about on of Jim Ross's cookbooks (God forbid ), it would most certainly get more traffic & replies in the Wrestling Forum where people have some knowledge of the book instead of the Printing Press where most likely it'll probably get lost in the shuffle among more stuff aimed at the general viewers of the Printing Press who aren't interested. I hope that made sense.
If these threads are created, they should utilized by playing up to their subject matter (whether it be sci-fi, wrestling, etc) instead of being moved just because they're a work of literature. Again using the wrestling forum as an example, that'd be like Jacen moving our Raw & Smackdown threads to the Television forum just because the topics are viewed as discussing a TV show instead of viewed as discussing that which the forum is made to discuss - wrestling.
Again, I hope that made some sense & can be applied to the argument at hand
-------------------- -Nightly Fantasy Basketball Season 1: 2nd place -Nightly Fantasy Baseball Season 1: 3rd place -Nightly WWE Fantasy Season 4 Champion -Nightly WWE Fantasy Season 5 Champion, 51st overall worldwide -Nightly WWE Fantasy Season 6 Champion Posts: 17912 | From: Houston, TX | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I'll tell ya what, pavonis, just for you I'll reopen that books thread in the sci-fi forum and people can respond all they want. How's that for feedback? Problem solved. Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
why not just let people post for a bit.. if a topic gets out of hand then close it. if the topic doesn't get the traffic it could in another forum after a week or so move it there?
with such a small forum I dont see the point in running it with such a hard approach..
Has there ever been so much flaming that you needed to close a thread in the forum? I dont think so if there has been please tell me so I can find it and laugh at the people who were flaming eachother..
-------------------- I trust everyone. It's the devil inside the person I don't trust.
It's not who I am underneath, but what I *do* that defines me.
nAw Creator Posts: 6238 | From: Somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:I dont see the point in running it with such a hard approach
I don't run the forum with a "hard approach". I moved one thread and a couple people decided to make a stink about it. So now the thread is reopen and the people can post to their hearts content. Moving on. Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
There's always been a bit of crossover between some threads, movies bleeds over into sci-fi and comics. Sci-fi can bleed over into books. Books can bleed over into EU-- there isn't a hardline rule as to where something HAS to be.
The thread in question could have been at home in either forum equally. I don't think SLD was being a tool by moving it, i think he honestly felt it would get a better response in the literature forum. think about it, who moves potentila traffic away from their own forum? Don't paint SLD into being some sort of Nazi, he made an honest call that he thought was best for the topic at hand. Then he made another one by letting the topic exist in both places.
I tend to err on the side of Mods who want to help discussion as opposed to posters who feel like the world will end if their topic is moved.
So not a big deal Pavonis, don't get your panties in a ruffle.
-------------------- Read My Film Snob Reviews -------------- crysmabob: why must everyone be dumb crysmabob: case in point: nightly.net Posts: 13694 | From: LA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Hey, I just thought it strange to move a thread titled "Sci-Fi Books" out of the science fiction forum. It certainly looked like he was moving potential traffic out of his forum. Then SLD claimed that he always moves sci-fi lit topics out of SF. That seemed really strange to me - what's the SF forum for if not all of SF? But, hey, whatever. As long as sci-fi lit threads don't get moved out of SF anymore, I'll be happy.
Posts: 3863 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:Originally posted by pavonis: ...I'm looking for feedback from the Admins now...
The decision of thread placement resides with the forum's Moderator. It's 100% SLD's call in this situation.
The Sci-Fi board has always been a tad tricky in its content, as the concept of Sci-Fi is made up of mostly movies, television and literature. That's the reason why some threads stay and others get moved to the other boards. If you think about it, it could work in reverse, but you wouldn't even bat an eye. Should we allow someone to make an Aliens thread in the Movie Forum? Should we allow someone to make a Quantum Leap thread in the Television Forum? Should we allow Jacen to post his alien abduction fantasy stories in the Printing Press? Shouldn't ALL these be moved to the Sci-Fi forum?
The answer is no. They don't have to. It' s up to the individual forum's Moderator to determine the best place for each thread. And, of course, it works the other way around. I've known SLD for a long time now and I'm sure he's more than willing to incorporate sci-fi literature there, as he posted in this thread. Remember, he hasn't been Mod there that long and needs time to get a feel for what content is appropriate and not. And like I said, that's not an easy thing to do in such a 'vague' forum with lots of gray area.
Feedback from it's visitors will make things more enjoyable for everyone involved, but let's not make it so scathingly. If you think a thread as better off left where it was, tell him. SLD is a good Mod, just not a mind reader.
-------------------- I come to you now at the turn of the tide. Posts: 20530 | From: Jax, FL U.S.A. | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by pavonis: Then SLD claimed that he always moves sci-fi lit topics out of SF.
No, "usually" was the word I used, not "always", and I'm not changing my tune on that either. So I'm still going to occassionally move some threads over to The Printing Press, because I believe it does make sense to do so.
I simply reopened that one thread to allow people to respond to it if they wish, but in terms of future threads some of them will still be moved when I feel it's appropriate. And a link to the moved thread will always be provided, so it will never be more than one extra mouse click to reach (and reply to) such threads.
Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
I suggest renaming the forum Science Fiction Television and Movies. That'd settle things, too. Then everyone would know sci-fi lit does not belong there.
And for the record, I've been a mod here, too, and I know how things work. Yes, all thread moving decisions are up to the mods. I know that. I was looking to see what others opinions were on the matter. Do others think sci-fi lit belongs in the Sci-Fi forum? Apparently some do.
Posts: 3863 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I just don't see the need to be so draconian in this matter. Threads get moved in and out of forums every day. SLD said some lit will stay and some will not. That's no different than in any other forum we have here.
-------------------- I come to you now at the turn of the tide. Posts: 20530 | From: Jax, FL U.S.A. | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Do others think sci-fi lit belongs in the Sci-Fi forum?
pavonis, it's not a question of what people think belongs there, it's a matter of what the forum is. And 99% of the discussion is TV and Movies. That's the reality of what the forum is. You might like the forum to be more about literature, but it really isn't.
As I mentioned, I'd be happy to make a dedicated thread for discussion of sci-fi literature in the sci-fi forum, but that's not likely to change the nature of the forum as a whole.
I also don't think renaming the forum is useful since I don't really want to discourage people from going outside the scope of TV and Movies sometimes, but at the same time some topics will be moved when they seem more appropriate to a different forum.
Like I said, I think things should be left as they are, because I don't think this is a major problem that needs to be addressed.
Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
its a sci fi forum.. why not just see how it runs first before you close and xfr to another forum or close it? I mean sure 99 percent of it is tv and movies... but the whole point of getting it open was a place to discuss everything sci fi... not just movies and tv..
-------------------- I trust everyone. It's the devil inside the person I don't trust.
It's not who I am underneath, but what I *do* that defines me.
nAw Creator Posts: 6238 | From: Somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Sinister Lord Degiya'goh: I also don't think renaming the forum is useful since I don't really want to discourage people from going outside the scope of TV and Movies sometimes, but at the same time some topics will be moved when they seem more appropriate to a different forum.
Don't you thinking moving a thread entitled "Sci-Fi Books" out of SF pretty blatantly says "Don't post about sci-fi lit here!"? If you don't want to discourage posting outside of sci-fi TV and movies, why'd you move the thread in the first place? It is not about what the majority of the forum content is, it's about what the proper content of the forum is. And sci-fi books belong in the sci-fi forum.
Look, I understand that threads will move, based on their content and the direction the discussion is moving in. But if you insist on confining all of sci-fi lit discussions to one thread, you're not doing any favors either. If someone wants to discuss the similiarties of the movie Starship Troopers to the novel, where does it go? If someone wants to compare and contrast Greg Benford's novel The Martian Race to Greg Bear's novel Moving Mars, where does that thread go? It seems pretty simple to me - they both belong in the sci-fi forum.
It's not difficult moderating a forum. You won't have a hard time telling which threads belong in sci-fi and which don't. Just don't kick sci-fi lit threads out. It's that simple.
Posts: 3863 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Sinister Lord Degiya'goh: You know, pavonis, you could have just PM'd me and expressed your concerns about this. This feedback thread isn't necessary.
As an Ex-Mod, Pavonis, you should know this.
-------------------- You can call me Derek. Posts: 3008 | From: The Squared Circle | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Sinister Lord Degiya'goh: You know, pavonis, you could have just PM'd me and expressed your concerns about this. This feedback thread isn't necessary.
As an Ex-Mod, Pavonis, you should know this.
As an Ex Mod I did that when I wanted to try something.. He answered one and then ignored the rest...
-------------------- I trust everyone. It's the devil inside the person I don't trust.
It's not who I am underneath, but what I *do* that defines me.
nAw Creator Posts: 6238 | From: Somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Jan 2000
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Richcelt
Musician, Historian, and Stalker Extraordinaire
Member # 2763
posted
Before the Star Trek Forum turned into the Sci-Fi forum, all such sci-fi literature was discussed in the Printing Press, or the Books Forum before that. All forms of literature was discussed there, sci-fi and fantasy discussions, among others, took place there. With the Lord of the Rings Forum and the Harry Potter Forum and now the catch-all Sci-Fi Forum, there is very little left to discuss that seems to be of any interest to the members of Nightly (there will certainly be NOTHING left if the Lord of the Rings, or Harry Potter, or something, suddenly turns into a catch-all Fantasy Forum). So where does that leave the Printing Press? It won't even funtion as a good writer's forum because, despite my recient efforts, there isn't anyone WRITING in it (or at least READING what's written in it) besides myself it seems.
I don't know where I'm going with this, or even how it relates to the thread outside of simple information. I'm just ranting here. It's no secret as to why the Printing Press doesn't get that many posts, simply because the things that people would want to post about already have their own forums with which to post in, and these places have been growing in number as the years have past and the Books/Printing Press Forums has been getting less and less traffic for it.
-------------------- Wizard's First Rule: People are stupid; people can be made to believe any lie, either because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it's true. -- Terry Goodkind
quote:Originally posted by Richcelt: Before the Star Trek Forum turned into the Sci-Fi forum, all such sci-fi literature was discussed in the Printing Press
Oh, believe me I know, and that's a major part of the reason why I think some sci-fi literature threads should still be in The Printing Press (and why I will ocassionally move some threads there), because it is the forum devoted to literature, catering to the people here at Nightly who read a lot. The history of The Printing Press forum lends itself to such discussion. Whereas the history of the sci-fi forum is that it was adapted from the Star Trek and Matrix forums. It has never been about literature, and in general most people who visit the sci-fi forum don't talk about literature. Again, my decision to sometimes move some threads has absolutely nothing to do with "not allowing" such discussion in the sci-fi forum, it has everything to do with where the most focused audience is for those threads.
Anyway, I consider the issue resolved. The thread that was moved has now been reopened so that people can respond in the Sci-Fi forum, or they can continue to respond in The Printing Press. People got two threads for the price of one. If that ain't enough to satisfy the masses... oh well.
'Nuff said.
Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
Okay - as i was involved in the "start" of this, my two pence..
In the end, we want to promote discussion and interaction, to that end, the moderators have a responsibility not only to monitor the content of discussions, but alo promote discussions within their forums, IMO.
The Sci-FI book thread, had it been opened in the Printing Press, would not have caused an issue. Nor should it have been an issue opening it in the Sci-Fi Forum. As it has been said - both forums are equally suitable homes for the content of the thread. However, i think we can all agree that despite SLD's call, the Sci-Fi book thread would get more views and responses in the Sci-Fi forum than it would on the Printing Press - so whilst i appreciate moving it may be his decision, but he should be open and responsive to comments that imply that decision may have been an incorrect one!
SLD complained above that this feedback thread was opened, and he could simply have been PM'd, yet in have PM'd him twice - once on this topic, and once on another topic - and he has replied nor acknowledged either of them! Both relate to threads he has closed on the Sci-Fo forum.
Closing threads that are promoting discussions in whatever form or moving them to areas where they will reduce the level of discussion is just a bad move for the board as whole!
-------------------- Nateboarding is for Life - There's No Other Way
Trained by Jedi Master Elfin Yoda (Clan of Elfie). Forever Master to Jedi Sassypants and Jedi UK Legend Killa.
quote:...yet in have PM'd him twice - once on this topic, and once on another topic - and he has replied nor acknowledged either of them!
FYI: I attempted to reply, but since your PM storage was full it would not accept any new messages or replies. You'll need to delete some messages if you expect people to reply to your PM's.
Posts: 13484 | From: A cold dark place | Registered: Dec 2000
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I already proposed a solution I'm willing to settle for. Rename the Sci-Fi forum and put all sci-fi lit discussions in the Printing Press. That'll increase traffic in the Printing Press and prevent anyone else from accidentally starting sci-fi lit discussion in the Science Fiction forum. If SLD wants to keep a few "literature" threads about Star Trek novels, that's fine (though Star Trek novels are hardly literature).
I'm just looking for some consistency, which I found to be lacking. If all sci-fi lit discussions are put in the Printing Press, then the Sci-Fi forum needs to be called what it would be - the Science Fiction Television and Movies forum. An administrator would have to do that, right? Jesus Christ, y'all like I've been a pain in your asses for years. I address one issue to the admins in five years here, and I get chewed out like a newbie for not PMing SLD. Geez.
Posts: 3863 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
The forum name doesn't need to be changed because some lit threads get moved.
Compromise. I've changed the forum description to specifially name Movies and Television shows as the forum's primary focus and consider this matter closed.
-------------------- I come to you now at the turn of the tide. Posts: 20530 | From: Jax, FL U.S.A. | Registered: Aug 2000
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Topic Closed
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), it would most certainly get more traffic & replies in the Wrestling Forum where people have some knowledge of the book instead of the Printing Press where most likely it'll probably get lost in the shuffle among more stuff aimed at the general viewers of the Printing Press who aren't interested. I hope that made sense.![[Shrug]](graemlins/shrug.gif)
