posted
Okay, this isn't a BIG deal, and this probably belongs in the Feedback forum. BUT, I'm hoping it can stay on the Religion forum for maybe a day or two...?
Anyway, what's bugging me is, on the main page, where you can click on links to the different forums, this is the description for the Religion forum:
quote: A board for discussion of religion, theology and philosophy. Atheists and agnostics are welcome, but play nice.
Again, no BIG deal, but why are atheists and agnostics characterized as people who might not "play nice"? From what I've seen on the forum, religious people are JUST AS LIKELY to NOT "play nice" as atheists and agnostics.
I'm wondering, could the "play nice" part be dropped and the sentence changed to, "Atheists and agnostics are welcome, too"? Or, if it needs the "play nice" tag, maybe it could say, "EVERYONE please play nice"?
Thanks for considering.
-------------------- "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin Posts: 3402 | From: New Jersey | Registered: May 2002
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posted
That's a very valid point that has implications all over society. We're constantly asked, or demanded, to "respect" religion. Why? No religion respects any other, by definition.
The closest one religion(A) gets to "respecting" another(B) is when it assumes that "B" is just someone else's way of worshiping the "A"'s god. Which, of course, is really even less respectful than flat-out saying, "You're wrong!"
posted
Because every time someone tries to start a conversation on religion, people jump on and take genearlist viewpoints in saying stuff like 'but how do you know God exists' - it's a religion forum so it would make sense that most people who visit it are religious or wanting to learn more, discuss it, et al. Why go to a Star Wars board just to denounce SW??
-------------------- I never think about the future. It comes soon enough.
posted
Well, it's the Religion AND Philosophy Forum, so....
Anyway, I respect the GOAL of Religion, which is to find the mystery behind life.
Religious dogma and the concept of "worshiping" the metaphors inpede the progress of that.
So, from MY pov, coming here and spouting pre-fabricated "god says" stuff is what is non-productive and distracting. I take the quest for the meaning of life VERY seriously, hense my utter disgust for religious dogma and symbols.
posted
Reminds me of a situation a friend of mine is in. He's a devout atheist who's been roped into a Bible study (long story why), and everytime he goes he finds himself "playing nice", because he doesn't want to sh!t on other people. Inevitably they ask him his option, knowing full well he's does not believe in God, and he let's them have it. He feels the need to walk on eggshells around them for some reason, and it's not because he's afraid of them. It's similar to how you alter your behavior when kids are around, I guess.
-------------------- On election day, I will be esentially doing the same thing you folks are doing, except that when I'm finished masturbating I'm gonna have a little more to show for it. Posts: 1611 | From: My Father's Penis | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Yeah. You would never ask a Fundamentialist Christian to "play nice" in front of the Scientists. It has to stem from a deep-rooted uneasiness religious people have about the reliability their faith.
No one cares about hurting an atheist's feelings. I can't count how many times people close to me have told me I'm going to hell. Not to mention that I view references to Revelation as simple murder fantasies Christians have about the wonderful time when everyone who doesn't believe what they believe will be killed.
posted
Someone wrote something similar about theist/atheist debating on another board I visit:
quote:The perfect world:
Theist: There is a God and, in my humble view, you should believe in Him.
Atheist: No thank you, Mr. Theist, have a wonderful day.
Theist: Okay.
Atheist: Go RedSox!
End
The real world:
Theist: There is a God and He has given us laws that you must live by in order to be forgiven for your debauchery and fallen lifestyle.
Atheist: There are no Gods and you can take your insulting and condescending garbage about my life and shove it.
Theist: You're rude, therefore, I am right.
Atheist: I wasn't rude until you were rude, therefore, I am right.
Interventionist: Those atheists really should find a way to be more polite, darnit.
Atheist: Well, I'm generally a polite person until I am confronted with the intolerance Theists keep spouting off online and offline regarding how I live my life.
Theist: Who ME?!
Interventionist: You atheists should really just get over that and just be more polite, sheesh.
Atheist:
-------
This discussion is then followed by an assortment of tangents regarding general religious issues containing more of the above elements.
quote: Primbud: it's a religion forum so it would make sense that most people who visit it are religious or wanting to learn more, discuss it, et al. Why go to a Star Wars board just to denounce SW??
Well, if atheists and agnostics aren't welcomed, then the description shouldn't say, "Atheists and agnostics ARE WELCOMED, but play nice." I mean, I don't see anything under the SW forum that says, "SW haters are welcomed."
Like Basil said, it's the Religion AND Philosophy forum. Atheism and agnosticism are philosophies, so they should be welcomed.
-------------------- "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin Posts: 3402 | From: New Jersey | Registered: May 2002
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posted
That's the funny thing about the friend I mentioned above. He's the nicest guy in the world, and he's also got an incredible sense of humor. The thought of him being in these Bible studies cracks me up. He's told me that he tries to hold back, but there are a couple of know-it-alls in there that won't leave hime alone.
He winds up expressing his views reluctantly and he can feel the uneasiness of everyone in the room because they know that what he is saying makes a lot of sense. Simple things like "what about the poor Malaysian kid who's never heard of Christ. Is he doomed to Hell?", and if they come back with that "all kids get into heaven" crap, he fires back with "if kids get in free, what's the cut off age?" Point being is that it's impossible not to like the guy, and that applies to people who are offended by his views. I really wish I could be a fly on the wall for those meetings.
-------------------- On election day, I will be esentially doing the same thing you folks are doing, except that when I'm finished masturbating I'm gonna have a little more to show for it. Posts: 1611 | From: My Father's Penis | Registered: Dec 2004
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It's probably something atheists and agnostics bring upon themselves. I wouldn't know what that is since I'm a believer.
"Bring upon themselves"? That's not "playing nice," is it? No, that's pretty antagonizing. Thank you for illustrating my point that believers don't always "play nice," either.
-------------------- "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin Posts: 3402 | From: New Jersey | Registered: May 2002
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If some people are having a serious and informed discussion about theology, scripture, or Church history etc., then there is no need for anyone to not "play nice".
I see no reason why I should "play nice" with fools though. Apocalyptic/prophecy nuts, Protestants slandering Catholics and vice versa etc., and anyone who uses the unmoved mover argument deserve a thorough bashing.
-------------------- Being religious is like living in North Korea. You have endless opportunities to praise the leader and thank him for everything. However, you can defect from North Korea or just die. With religion you have to go thanking him long after you're dead. Posts: 4517 | From: 49 15 N, 2 10 W | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
[John Madden]Here's the mods gameplan: Quetz is going to blitz in past the offensive line and take out the quarterback (the sentece) and "BOOM" problem solved. Then Im going to grab me some chicken wings heh heh heh.[/John Madden]
-------------------- "Do or do not, there is no try." -Yoda
I love Karma because I can do bad things to people all day and assume they had it coming. Posts: 5636 | From: Victoria, Texas | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I always took the description on the main page to be a way of conveying the idea that the board is a debate forum and not limited to just religous people. In other words, I always took it to be a way of letting people know that everyone is invited to the board.
I can understand why you would feel the way you do about the "...but play nice" comment, Cannoli, but I doubt it was intended to come across that way. Its also important to remember that, when this forum was first created, it was soley a religion forum, no philosophy. So the "play nice" remark was probably just intended as a precautionary measure to avoid possible conflict, sinse people of so many different beliefs visit the forum, and religion can often be a volatile issue.
Thats always been my take on it anyway.
*sends thread off to feedback*
-------------------- "Those who do not understand the metaphor, the language of religious revelation, find themselves up against the images that they accept or contest as facts." - Joseph Campbell Posts: 2682 | From: the twylight zone | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
I tend to seek to understand another's point of view. I have a terrible time defending my belief system. But I have learned to listen/read other POV. I think it is the specific label that Obi-Wan Cannoli objects to.
Posts: 4846 | From: Dallas TX | Registered: May 2005
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Drunken Master
Come, let me buy you a drink.
Member # 15059
posted
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: So the "play nice" remark was probably just intended as a precautionary measure to avoid possible conflict, sinse people of so many different beliefs visit the forum, and religion can often be a volatile issue.
Certainly understandable, and fine in theory, but in execution it seems to be skewed, unfairly singling out agnostics and atheists. I certainly doubt this was the intention, so a quick grammatical tweak and it's better for all involved.
A suggested revision: "A board for discussion of philosophy, theology and religion -- atheists and agnostics are welcome, too. Play nice."
...or...
"A board for discussion of religion, theology and philosophy. Everyone's welcome, but play nice."
[edit -- Ah, I see Cannoli has made almost those very suggestions!]
-------------------- "Where are you going, master?" "For a drink!" ============== Brownest of the Brown. Posts: 1704 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Hee. I put like two seconds of thought into it. The fact it's this board's description that's being so overanalyzed amuses me.
You guys are reading too much into it. I won't deny there's an undertone to the remark, but it wasn't meant as an insult. It was written when it was just the Religion board, no Philosophy, and the intention was to let atheists and agnostics know that they were allowed, but that the board would be about religion, and not about disproving and attacking religion. Someone mentioned the SW boards, which is somewhat comparable. We allow criticism and debate but ultimately, it's still a board for SW fans, not SW haters.
Things didn't exactly work out that way, and that was probably unavoidable, especially after we included Philosophy. I really believe the board would be much more productive if there was less focus on criticisms and flaws of religion, but it's difficult to force things against people's nature.
I'll change the description, but for what it's worth: take it easy, guys. I know that there are plenty of religious people who can be just as guilty of bad behavior and it's all fair and good to knock heads with them. But what disappoints me are the non-extremists who might like to participate in religious discussions but get driven off by the harsh tone of the board. There should more productive discussions that don't get sidetracked into the same old attack/defense routines. Not everyone who believes in religion needs to be condescended to and generalized. People need to be more discriminate in when to leave other members and other threads alone.
-------------------- Ummm....I don't know what this means....but a giant iceberg just winked at me. Posts: 20122 | From: Terminal Dogma | Registered: Oct 1999
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Drunken Master
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Mandard: Hee. I put like two seconds of thought into it. The fact it's this board's description that's being so overanalyzed amuses me.
Indeed!
quote:You guys are reading too much into it. I won't deny there's an undertone to the remark [ed -- Aha!], but it wasn't meant as an insult [ed - Oh, poo! ]. It was written when it was just the Religion board, no Philosophy, and the intention was to let atheists and agnostics know that they were allowed, but that the board would be about religion, and not about "disproving and attacking" [ed - 'air quotes'] religion. Someone mentioned the SW boards, which is somewhat comparable. We allow criticism and debate but ultimately, it's still a board for SW fans, not SW haters.
Well, ya know, following the SW analogy, "there's a Light and a Dark side, and they both need to be there -- everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation."
quote:I really believe the board would be much more productive if there was less focus on criticisms and flaws of religion, but it's difficult to force things against people's nature.
Ya know, that's deep. (Seriously)
quote:I'll change the description, but for what it's worth: take it easy, guys. [ed -- Honestly, I hadn't noticed the slight but I can see where OBC is coming from]. I know that there are plenty of religious people who can be just as guilty of bad behavior and it's all fair and good to knock heads with them. But what disappoints me are the non-extremists who might like to participate in religious discussions but get driven off by the harsh tone of the board. There should more productive discussions that don't get sidetracked into the same old attack/defense routines. Not everyone who believes in religion needs to be condescended to and generalized. People need to be more discriminate in when to leave other members and other threads alone.
You're a good man, Mandard.
The irony (or is it tragedy? [refer back to 'human nature' comments]) is that you could've been describing me an my tone, just there, yet I haven't been to the R&P board in like...what, 8, 10 months?...before today. I think your last line said it all: you gotta know when to just walk away. My life has had one less stressor ever since...
-------------------- "Where are you going, master?" "For a drink!" ============== Brownest of the Brown. Posts: 1704 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I am so glad that I no longer moderate the religion board. Quetz, you're a saint...or whatever.
-------------------- "...Cuckoo got it right..." - James Madison "I agree" - Quetzalcoatl "wow, Cuckoo... i've never heard it put quite so well." - Sigh Snootles "I agree totally." - Sephi "Basically....what Cuckoo just said." - monkeygirl "I concur." - Jaycie Posts: 3428 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Mandard: I really believe the board would be much more productive if there was less focus on criticisms and flaws of religion, but it's difficult to force things against people's nature.
I've been feeling the same way lately.
I've lately developed an interest in the theories of Joseph Campbell, Mircea Eliad, etc, on why we have religion and the function it plays in our lives. I wouldn't mind seeing more threads like that. You know, not so much questioning the validity of religion, but just analyzing religion itself, the theories of Freud, Jung, Campbell, etc. Im thinking of starting some threads of that type in the near future.
But, to be honest, it looks as though the "God is real. No is isn't. Yes he is. No he isn't" type discussions are what makes the forum thrive. The attack/defense theads just seem to be the most popular kind.
-------------------- "Those who do not understand the metaphor, the language of religious revelation, find themselves up against the images that they accept or contest as facts." - Joseph Campbell Posts: 2682 | From: the twylight zone | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Ahhh. This reminds me of an interview Douglas Adams once gave to an American magazine. he was asked "Does being an Atheist impact on your job prostects??". Adams looked at the man, confused and asked him why he would think this. The man replied someting along the lines of: "Well, you'd have to be careful wouldn't you??". Adams almost walked out.
See. people expect Athiests to get in trouble for badmouthing religion. In the deep south of America, no offence guys, this may be true, but Adams didn't understand this until he came to live in America. Where he found the religious views to be, in some cases, extreme. He couldn't believe the uproar that would be caused when an Athiest said their beliefs, but not when a religious person did. Becuase they were stereotyped to be [n]not playing nice[/b].
Oh well. It made sense to me anyway.
-------------------- Mr Flibbles very cross...
nAw Tag Champ and GWF World Champ Posts: 11848 | From: ESPN 8 'The Ocho' | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Wow. I didn't expect it to change so quickly.
Thanks!
-------------------- "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin Posts: 3402 | From: New Jersey | Registered: May 2002
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Drunken Master
Come, let me buy you a drink.
Member # 15059
posted
quote:Originally posted by bonnie13: "A board for discussion of religion, theology and philosophy. All are welcome, but please be respectful of each other's beliefs."
In my opinion, perfect.
Agreed. Thanks for the consideration.
-------------------- "Where are you going, master?" "For a drink!" ============== Brownest of the Brown. Posts: 1704 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Primbud: It's probably something atheists and agnostics bring upon themselves. I wouldn't know what that is since I'm a believer.
Two posts up
quote:Originally posted by Miisa: Atheist: I wasn't rude until you were rude
-------------------- “When we are unhurried and wise we perceive that only great and worthy things have any permanent and absolute existence — that petty fears and petty pleasures are but the shadow of reality. This is always exhilarating and sublime.” Posts: 15386 | From: Des Moines, IA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Yeah. You would never ask a Fundamentialist Christian to "play nice" in front of the Scientists. It has to stem from a deep-rooted uneasiness religious people have about the reliability their faith.![[No]](graemlins/no.jpg)
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Indeed! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
]. It was written when it was just the Religion board, no Philosophy, and the intention was to let atheists and agnostics know that they were allowed, but that the board would be about religion, and not about "disproving and attacking" [ed - 'air quotes'] religion. Someone mentioned the SW boards, which is somewhat comparable. We allow criticism and debate but ultimately, it's still a board for SW fans, not SW haters.
