posted
I think it's obvious that there is some desire here to talk about the Dark Tower Series (sorry about hijacking your thread, Mara ) which is exciting for me because I love the series and I love talking about it. Moreso, I think the "Dark Tower Universe" is one of the more fascinating things I've ever seen from one author. Especially because there is no reason to believe this didn't all happen by accident. I think (and King has said in interviews) that he only slowly realized what was going on and that everything was connected.
But first, let's copy over that roadmap:
Next, I wanted to share with you a fascinating book on this subject that I've reread several times. Unfortunately, I can't find the book and every google search variation I've tried has just returned five million links to the Dark Tower volumes themselves. >:-# Why google would gushingly provide links to "Wizard and Glass" when I specifically asked for NONFICTION Dark Tower works I don't know. I'll run across my copy and then provide the book title.
But anyway, lets talk here about this fascinating series and the overall universe.
Oh, speaking of Wizard and Glass, I agree with what was said in the other thread. That was the longest and most tedious of the entire series, but there was still a lot to like in it. A lot. But yeah, it dragged quite a bit.
Edited because I'm an incoherent moron today. >:-#
-------------------- Don't hate the PIE, hate the PIEmaker. Posts: 2385 | From: Greensboro, NC | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kung Fu Jawa
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posted
I was going to start a similar thread, but so be it.
It also seems that we could add The Cell to that chart somewhere, but I'll leave the location to someone who's read all the books.
And please, for those of us still in the series, remember your SPOILER tags!
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About Wizard and Glass. Initially, it was sort of intimidating, but I loved the pace. It was like a classic western with a very very little fantasy thrown in. I really cared about
SPOILER . . . . .. .
. . . . .. . I really cared about Roland's girlfriend (mind blank on the name LOL) but the climax was heartwrenching, and I just wanted Roland to cut the witch up into little pieces, but that ***** got away! It was freaking tragic. . . . . . . . . . . . .
.. . END SPOILERS
I also love how badass these pre-pubescent kids are. There was a great contrast between the hardened old cowboys in town and these clean cut 'city boys' who just arrived.
The class structure was so interesting. The boys are always so inteligent and calm and badass all at the same time.
"The Dark Tower: A Concordince (sp?) vol 1" "The Dark Tower: A Concordince vol 2"
these books spend hundreds of pages, not only going into the connections between all of the books, but also, the INCREDIBLE depth of the Tower story itself - from the wiegh station to the river folk, to the city of lud, etc. there is just SO MUCH stuff. The universe is just amazing, frankly.
posted
I need to find time to finish Harry Potter so I can get back into the DT.
I must read Insomnia and Hearts in Atlantis.
The reason the main Dark Tower companion books are so important, is because those books contain actual characters, not just references to the DT, actual characters that show up in the core story.
SEMI-SPOILERS - not really, just a character list . . . . ..
. ..
Salem's Lot - Father Callahan The Stand - Flagg/Walter/everyone, etc.. Eyes of the Dragon - Flagg Hearts in Atlantis - Ted Brautigan Insomnia - I can't remember his name DANG IT! the artist kid. ..
. .. . . . .. .END
Are there any other characters from his novels that show up?
If you want a pretty solid description of the MAIN related books and how they relate, go here:
posted
No. Grrrr. The thing I remember is that it was written by two guys and it only covered the first four DT books and up to and including the release of Everything's Eventual. I've been hoping they will release an updated edition covering everything else but so far I haven't seen it. (Of course now I can't remember the title so there might be an updated version for all I know).
-------------------- Don't hate the PIE, hate the PIEmaker. Posts: 2385 | From: Greensboro, NC | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I don't get it. Is that a 'map' showing how all the books are interlinked?
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nAw Tag Champ and GWF World Champ Posts: 11848 | From: ESPN 8 'The Ocho' | Registered: Nov 2004
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Kung Fu Jawa
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posted
Before you read a book, you are supposed to read the book that points to it. Derry is just the town of Derry, which is in the two books it points to and T3 is the, yet not written, third book in the Talisman/Black House trilogy. I don't know why it's pink.
The numbers refer to foot notes that followed the chart.
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quote:Originally posted by UK Legend Killa: One thing I find strange is that I read The Regulators, but couldn't get into Desperation...
i was the other way around. i slammed through Desperation but never finished Regulators though i got pretty far into it. TAK!!!
im not sure that these two books belong in the DT universe though. theyre more like two sides of the same coin and i dont think either one mentions anything else in the DT universe.
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Kung Fu Jawa
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posted
"...the "doctor bugs" from Eluria speak the same language as Tak from Desperation."
I don't know who any of those people are, but that's the connection.
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posted
ooooooo. cool! that King is a subtle fiend.
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Kung Fu Jawa
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posted
Not exactly a DT linkage, but while reading the Stand I found a link between it and The Shining. In The Stand, page 502 (my edition) Mother Abagail Freemantle says:
quote: Prophecy is the gift of God and everyone has a smidge of it. My own greandmother used to call it the shining lamp of God, sometimes just the shine.
Obviously a referance to The Shining, but isn't this exactly what Scatman Crothers says in the movie? Sorry, I haven't read the book yet.
-------------------- "It's time to bring the ukulele back; size does not always count."~Bruce Springsteen Posts: 8086 | From: The room of the Wolfmother wallpaper. | Registered: Apr 2003
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Also, The Dead Zone actually has a woman say something like "he has powers like that girl in that book Carrie!" I have a clear memory of me tossing the book across the room when I read this as a kid.
Another inter-book connection can be found in Bag of Bones when we find out Thad's fate (he was the protag in The Dark Half). There are probably more too. King is always working it.
-------------------- Don't hate the PIE, hate the PIEmaker. Posts: 2385 | From: Greensboro, NC | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kung Fu Jawa
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posted
Threw the book...
Scatman's quote is actually "I can remember when I was a little boy. My grandmother and I could hold conversations entirely without ever opening our mouths. She called it "shining." And for a long time, I thought it was just the two of us that had the shine to us. Just like you probably thought you was the only one. But there are other folks, though mostly they don't know it, or don't believe it. How long have you been able to do it?... Why don't you want to talk about it?"
Close enough.
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posted
it was an 8 hour miniseries and it was really good. but a pen pal told me that when it aired over in England they took out the opening bit where the camera goes past all these dead bodies that have their eyes open. she said that its not okay to show open eyed dead bodies on British tv. sex is fine, but not death.
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quote:Originally posted by UK Legend Killa: Woah, what happenes to Thad!
The answer is not spoilery at all because it was one line of text in the novel "Bag of Bones" and nothing was done with it after that. It was just a way for SK to update us. However, if someone reading this doesn't want to know, skip down to the next reply after this paragraph.
T H A D
U P D A T E
Apparently Thad's wife left him, he lost his mind, and killed himself. I'm thinking there has to be more to this story. Perhaps King got halfway through a short story about this and then didn't finish it for whatever reason but decided to pass this along. I've always wondered what would push Thad to the edge like this. Or was he murdered and the suicide was the coverup? I've read that novel several times so I feel like I know Thad so I've spent more time than I should have thinking about it. LOL
One more point of interest on this subject. Timothy Hutton played Thad in the movie version of "The Dark Half." Timothy Hutton also had a role in "Secret Window," which was another in Stephen King's "Author Protagnist" series of novels and short stories. (A series that ended with "Bag of Bones," incidently, which of course is the book that Thad's ultimate fate is revealed) Not only that, but the setting is almost the same in both stories if I remember correctly. A lot of the themes are similiar in both those stories as well. So it is interesting to me that Hutton would have been in both movies.
-------------------- Don't hate the PIE, hate the PIEmaker. Posts: 2385 | From: Greensboro, NC | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Book Imp: it was an 8 hour miniseries and it was really good. but a pen pal told me that when it aired over in England they took out the opening bit where the camera goes past all these dead bodies that have their eyes open. she said that its not okay to show open eyed dead bodies on British tv. sex is fine, but not death.
I doubt that.
Hmmm, that alternate ending seems strange.
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So, now that you've read The Stand, Kung Fu Jawa, any new thoughts on this universe?
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Kung Fu Jawa
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posted
Well, I'm wondering if "THe Stand" is the birthplace of the Dark Man. His character talks a little bit about his origins in it, of gaining his powers a little at a time. I also think that the raven from "Gunslinger", Zoltan, is Flagg in disguise. Seeing that Flagg could turn into Wolves and Crows leads me to believe that the man in black wanted to hear how Roland did in Tull, and therefore eavesdrops as Zoltan. Zoltan also has some of Flaggs humor. His two lines- "Beans beans the magical fruit..." and "Screw you and the horse you rode in on." sound like Flagg.
I think the redheaded dude, Brown, comes from somewhere else too, just not the Stand. I'm keeping my eyes pealed.
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posted
ps. I also caught a small reference to Castlerock made by Fran. It doesn't relate to the dark Tower, but Castlerock is a ficticous town in a lot of King's books.
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posted
Yeah, I believe that "The Stand" is the birthplace of The Dark Man. Speaking of which, any more elaborate thoughts on Eyes of the Dragon as it relates to the Dark Tower Universe?
For instance, this is the second weakest incarnation of the Dark Man in my opinion.
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posted
I don't know about the stand being his birthplace...
I've always thought of Eyes of the Dragon as being way way in the past.
Its been a while though.
You're right about Flagg in Eyes of the Dragon being fairly weak (what's the first, btw?) but that fits the story. Its like a fairy tale, almost a children's book. The bad guy has to be a shifty slime-ball. It wouldn't work if he was all-powerful evil.
I took it to mean he is bad in every sense. When he needs to be a children's book bad guy he is, when he needs to be a 'real life' bad guy he is, etc. He's all levels of bad.
Kung Fu Jawa
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posted
Flagg seems fatally flawed, though. He is really bad ass at the beginning, but then falls apart towards the end of these stories. Mostly because he becomes blinded to something the good guys are doing. I really don't think he belongs to himself if that means anything. Something else controls him. Mostly in the stand this happens, and a little in EotD. Strange dreams, urges to do things. I'm not sure if he is hinmself a demon, or the demon posses him and is that controlling entity. Maybe the rest of tDT reveals this.
As for his origins being in the Stand, when we first see him as he walks along a road, he talks about getting his magic and then goes on to levitate. I didn't note it, but he says something about things coming to a head... "it must be because I have these new powers." or something like that. It seems so new to him. He talks about his past as if it were in a normal lifespan. Things he did in Vietnam or somewhere. His memories get cloudier the further back he goes. In Eyes of the Dragon he seems to have better control over himself (not totally) and obviously has been around for centuries. My guess is that he did "become" in The Stand and that the EotD is another world/universe that he escapes too. It's a more primitive world so he can't destroy it as easily; it's taking him a lot longer.
Now, of The Eyes of the Dragon in itself, I loved it! I may do a full review, so I won't go too into it. I'm going to let it simmer a few days at any rate. It's kind of like a mini Stand. There where tons of Tower references. Some I noted that didn't coincide with thedarktower.net: a)the green drink that Flagg gives to King Roland seems similar to devil grass. Rolands breath is described as smelling of death and I believe that was how what's-his-name's was in Tull. b)a very small reference to the Little Sisters of Eluria, I think. Page 213 "...rocking and plying her needle like one of those weird sisters of whom you may have heard in another tale."
Also, is Pennywise from It also Flagg? I read part of it in High School so I don't remember much. Pennywise has Flagg's smile, doesn't he? I thought about it because of this quote, "...the black scent approaching them from behind did not belong to a man;it was a monster chasing them, some horrible It." (page 368) I only ask because "It" is capitalized.
Finally, I thought this stood out in relation to the Stand and EotD. "I think tha soonwer or later, things like you always begin to repeat themselves, because things like you know only a very few simple tricks. After a while, someone always sees through them. I think that is all that saves us, ever."(page 371) It just kind of stood out from the point of the story it was spoken. I guess that could be the moral of the story, if there is one.
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Kung Fu Jawa
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) which is exciting for me because I love the series and I love talking about it. Moreso, I think the "Dark Tower Universe" is one of the more fascinating things I've ever seen from one author. Especially because there is no reason to believe this didn't all happen by accident. I think (and King has said in interviews) that he only slowly realized what was going on and that everything was connected.
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Unfortunately, the author's final word is law.